Can platforms with weak business models survive crypto contagion? ", the recording of the town hall on YouTube, Judge Wiles granted qualifying Voyager users access to $270 million, withdraw up to $100,000 in a 24-hour period, Why federal charges over an alleged Ponzi scheme may only be the tip of the iceberg. Voyager Features Head to consensus.coindesk.com to register and buy your pass now. These fees depend on the coin but can range anywhere from 1% to 3%. The only thing that the Invest Voyager App has is that you can earn interest on some coins that are not available at other platforms. $650 million of Voyager funds, effectively including a lot of customer deposits, was simply gone. Press J to jump to the feed. Notice there's a "MAX" button for withdrawing everything you have. ", Magnolia echoed that sentiment, saying she thought Voyager had touted its USDC as being "FDIC insured.". The bankrupt lender Voyager Digital has reached a temporary agreement with FTX's subsidiary firm, Alameda Research LLC over a loan repayment The post Voyager and Alameda Reach Interim Settlement Over $445M Loan Repayment appeared first on Blockchain, Crypto and Stock News. I am obviously incentivized with a $25 bonus when you sign up, using my referral link, but youll end up losing A LOT of money in fees in the long run. Voyager Global Mobility. Sign up for free newsletters and get more CNBC delivered to your inbox. Binance US's restructuring plan is favoured by 97% of Voyager customers Gadgets. More curious now, I decided to put in a little money, less than $200, and see what would happen when the month was up. "This is a company that's talking about how great they're doing," she said. According to its website, you can sign up and begin investing in three minutes or less. The contagion risk spread to derivatives contracts. At least that's what they say. I highly recommend getting an additional bank account for this very reason. Dear Voyager Customer, As you're likely aware, we are significantly behind on processing your crypto withdrawal request (s). Voyager Token $0.38329928-3.41%. Terras downfall led to Three Arrows default led to Voyagers reckoning. Voyager Digital did not indicate when it would restore trading, deposit, withdrawal and loyalty reward services. As it turns out, 2021 was actually a lot like 2017 both were quickly followed by a brutal crypto market crash. We are aware withdrawals are taking longer than usual, and the team is working to process withdrawal requests as well as enable transfers on more assets in the Voyager app. The issue of ownership is proving to be particularly vexing for this customer and others. 2. Some withdrawal fees can be anywhere from $10-$15USD (full list here). Trading Minimum: There is a minimum trade size of $10USD. Customers who had U.S. dollars in their account at the bank apparently now are allowed to withdraw up to $100,000 in a 24-hour period through the Voyager app. Jamie Redman is the News Lead at Bitcoin.com News and a financial tech journalist living in Florida. They have also set up a website at. A Division of NBCUniversal. This is 10x to 30x higher than the fees on Binance which are 0.1% per trade. The loan-loss warning from Voyager arrived at a dismal time for the broader . Some temporary breathing room came in the form of a June 20 unsecured loan facility worth roughly $500 million from trading powerhouse Alameda Research. This tells me that Voyager app is rolling their fee into every order. Verify the wallet address and amount and click "Next." I did. . Join the most important conversation in crypto and Web3 taking place in Austin, Texas, April 26-28. The modern day striker has to be many things to make it to the top. Tap the asset that you wish to withdraw to an external wallet. This tweet refers to the SEC taking stringent action against crypto projects, specifically exchanges. Like all public companies, they will be audited. Following the encounter with Saturn, Voyager 1 headed on a trajectory to escape the solar system at a speed of about 3.5 AU (325 million miles or 523 million kilometers) per year, 35 degrees out of the ecliptic plane to . If you want to sign-up for the Voyager crypto app, you can use my Voyager promo code for a $25 sign up bonus. One after another, firms halted or severely limited withdrawals, leaving investors uncertain whether they would ever see their real life money again. Then the wild card reared up. Cryptocurrency withdrawal statuses. I just started using voyager about a week ago and switching over from Coinbase Im loving it. But this isnt JUST a selfish request. Check to see if the status of the relevant cryptocurrency is "Operational" on our status page. We all remember 2017.. FML. Her work has appeared in SFGATE, The Common, phoebe, TIMBER Journal, and elsewhere. Before you can open your account, you will be required to provide specific information. Thats unlikely to leave users particularly happy, though it might give them a backdoor incentive to continue using the crippled service. Its common to be wary before trying a new platform. As part of their compensation, certain CoinDesk employees, including editorial employees, may receive exposure to DCG equity in the form of stock appreciation rights, which vest over a multi-year period. Voyager tells the court it plans to mount a comeback. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. But Three Arrows did not respond and was also ghosting other partners. Bitcoin.com does not provide investment, tax, legal, or accounting advice. Interestingly, Voyager states that they are commission-free but in the small print they say additional fees may apply. https://voyager.onelink.me/WNly/referral?af_sub5=DAN8DE, Creating an order always defaults to market price while having the Limit Price on another page, For limit orders, they WONT show you the current ask/bid price, Voyager Exchange only trades against USD. At least now I know and will be staying far away. Please note that our privacy policy, terms of use, cookies, and do not sell my personal information has been updated.The leader in news and information on cryptocurrency, digital assets and the future of money, CoinDesk is a media outlet that strives for the highest journalistic standards and abides by a strict set of editorial policies. Select the currency from the dropdown. Platforms like Voyager made buying these funds easy. The committee said it was able to negotiate a "very aggressive" plan timeline, which targets the end of October, though the timing is subject to change. The key words are: you may not be interested in completing your withdrawal at this point????? This can take up to 24-hours. FTX has just struck a $680 million credit deal to acquire BlockFi, according to The Block. Those are very high fees. Last week, I saw a tweet from a panicked single mother who had $70,000 in the app saved to buy a house. That means if you have BTC and want to buy VGX, you have to sell BTC for USD. In addition to the hearing in early August in the Southern District of New York, Voyager customers also had an opportunity to voice their displeasure in a livestream chat accompanying a 52-minute virtual town hall last week. From there, the Bitcoin will be in your account within 72-hours. Voyager went into what might be described as panic mode. When you do a bank transfer with Voyager, they connect to your bank account using Plaid. Starting Thursday, some Voyager users were supposed to have access to $270 million in cashVoyager held with Metropolitan Commercial Bank. The withdrawal is anticipated to start Aug. 11 for dollars holdings only, the company said in a blog post Friday. Do you have to be selfish to be a striker? Thus far, investors in the world's two largest cryptocurrencies by market cap seem unfazed by the news. I hope they burn down and end up bankrupt. Digital asset brokerage Voyager Digital has paused all customer trading, deposits, withdrawals and loyalty rewards, according to a statement released Friday afternoon. Withdraw Bitcoin or Ethereum to the wallet or vendor of your choice by pasting their unique address or scanning their QR code. Leadership seemed barely able to conceive of a bear market, much less its consequences. But as bubbles do, crypto-mania hit its limit in late 2021, and assets started hemorrhaging value. FourFourTwo gets inside the mind of a striker, interviewing the masters of the art and the men who have to mark them, including Jermain Defoe, Romelu Lukaku, Michael Owen, Martin Keown and Ledley King. Starting to get concerned after so long with no movement or updates. As of the time of publication, the recording of the town hall on YouTube had more than 4,000 views. Currently, Voyager is available in every U.S. state except New York. All the better to protect against Terras spectacular May collapse. It has been over 24 hours and the status is still pending, not seeing any movement in etherscan and obviously funds aren't in the wallet I transfered to yet. Select the destination address ( this is provided by your external wallet or exchange) Input the amount (please be aware of common withdrawal holds) After reviewing transfer details, select Request Withdrawal. WATCH: Why federal charges over an alleged Ponzi scheme may only be the tip of the iceberg. Under a Chapter 11 filing unlike a Chapter 7 filing management remains in control of the business and the company largely maintains normal operations. . Voyager Digital CEO Steve Ehrlich giving a thumbs up at Bitcoin Miami in April of 2022 (Danny Nelson/CoinDesk). They take in capital from lenders, long or short a cornucopia of (risky) assets, invest in early-stage companies and if all goes well, earn massive returns relatively quickly. 1996 Cabo Rico 38. However, early morning today, Voyager Digital was still accepting deposits but not allowing withdrawals, according to users of the platform on Twitter. The Voyager app is designed to be easy to use, accessible and straightforward. Disclaimer: This article is for informational purposes only. The FDIC is now investigating Voyager for its claim that funds were insured. There they could make their pleas to the "Voyager Official Committee of Unsecured Creditors," a group formed by the bankruptcy court of SDNY to resolve asset distribution. The latest moves in crypto markets, in context. She also asked whether CEO Stephen Ehrlich was still getting paid and receiving a bonus. You have to select LIMIT as another page at the top. That has had real ramifications for real people, many of whom came to Voyager and its ilk with modest savings, in search of higher yield. Voyager explained that it was "temporarily suspending trading, deposits, withdrawals and loyalty rewards, effective at 2:00 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time today." Hidden fees that are rolled into every market buy, market sell, limit buy and limit sell. Monitor your investments 24 hours a day, around the clock from around the globe. Like many other people, I have been burnt by shady companies in the past. Advanced . One committee member noted, however, that the guidance they were providing was "not legal advice" and that it was "strongly recommended" that individual creditors consider retaining counsel to assist with this process. What platforms can you use Voyager on? There are multiple interviews and profiles with them. The buying and selling experience is very bad on Voyager. All trades can only be done against the USD (more on that later). Some of these returns funnel back to their lending partners as interest payments. Chapter 11 in the United States is a well-established legal process through which companies reorganize their financial obligations and emerge as stronger organizations while operating in the normal course. The company also noted that it has access to a $200 million credit line in cash and USDC stablecoins, as well as a 15,000 bitcoin ($318 million) revolving credit line from Alameda Ventures, which is FTX founder Sam Bankman-Fried's quantitative trading firm. Free crypto education Voyager is tailored to all traders, in particular beginners. They do apply. During the sign-up process you will need to enter DAN8DE for the Voyager promo code. Jacob Redburn said he had deposited 100 ether, or about $198,800 at today's price and $480,000 at the market peak, on to Voyager's digital trading platform. I have a question that isn't answered here. Plans to resume app access for cash withdrawal on Aug. 11, Firm is pursuing restructuring process and potential sale. When asset prices tumble or a counterparty defaults on a massive loan, the lenders are left with gaping holes in their balance sheets. "This was a tremendously. It also didn't require much knowledge of how cryptocurrency worked. Meet Kevin was right, he has a video about it. But with the USDC coin purchased through Voyager, I thought I was buying a coin with a stable price. I understand certain situations involve growing pains but when it comes to money, these institutions seem to exhibit little-to-no insight into these matters. That would seem to reflect above-average faith in the fund, and multiple lenders did make generous loans to Three Arrows co-founders Kyle Davies and Su Zhu on friendly terms. Its own massive bets on LUNA had imploded into a black hole of losses. It turns out, at least in my case, it was too good to be true. I dismissed the idea, until my friend told me that the currency was a stablecoin, which means its value doesn't change. So if you dont have $10, the Voyager crypto app doesnt want anything to do with you. Why is Voyager 3+ days and counting in a pending state? On Monday, the broker issued a notice that prominent crypto hedge fund Three Arrows Capital (3AC) had defaulted on a loan worth more than $670 million. (Genesis is owned by Digital Currency Group, which also owns CoinDesk.) Learn more about Consensus 2023, CoinDesks longest-running and most influential event that brings together all sides of crypto, blockchain and Web3. 4m They are getting more demand than they can handle, once they get it together, this company will explode. As youre likely aware, we are significantly behind on processing your crypto withdrawal request(s). The app's main selling point is that it scours the exchanges for the best price on the token you want, offering more than . Coinbase Pro has fees at 0.5% which is high, but makes up for it with the lower withdrawal fees. The Central Bank of Brazil has confirmed that the institution will run a pilot test regarding the implementation of its proposed central bank digital currency (CBDC), the digital real. When a lot of people will demand their crypto we will be fucked. At press time, DOGE is trading at $0.08115 after hitting the low of $0.07906 today. But the lending business rallied like no other during the pandemic, when speculative mania from retail traders pushed everything from GameStop stock to dogecoin into silly season. It offers two: Simple trade and advanced trade. In the past two years, I've earned steady, high yields, and regularly taken money out of my Voyager account to pay bills. Within days, a blockchain that Ehrlich claims was widely viewed as a project with significant promise and had major backing from investors of all stripes, had gone all but kaput. So if you buy and sell a coin thats a 3% fee which is outrageously high and it doesnt make any sense why you would use this appunless you thought that there were no fees and all trades were commission free. Get the latest tips you need to manage your money delivered to you biweekly. All rights reserved. The Canada-listed public company needed potential strategic solutions to its looming liquidity crisis and it needed them fast. At the Voyager crypto app LIMIT Buy/Sell page, it will NOT show you the current ask/bid prices. How to withdraw crypto Open the Voyager app and navigate to Account on the bottom navigation bar. Global Business and Financial News, Stock Quotes, and Market Data and Analysis. Voyager customers were given the chance to submit questions in advance of the event last week. Magnolia, who only disclosed her first name, said she had over $1 million trapped on the platform, including $350,000 that was earmarked to pay for college for her children. The cryptocurrency market has proven itself volatile, but for a while, stablecoins like USDC were and perhaps still are a solid way to save money in the midst of growing inflation and weak yields in traditional savingsaccounts. If you dont trust the Voyager app, I completely agree. How To Withdraw Your Money From Voyager Check out BlockFi to earn interest on your crypto https://trufinancials.com/blockfi ---------- Recommended resources ---------- Refinance your. Like other exchanges I'm part of (Celsius, Binance, and KuCoin) transfers take at most several hours. NMLS ID: 1906829 That's why several customers are begging U.S. bankruptcy court judge Michael Wiles for help. This should happen automatically. Voyager's announcement comes amid a raft of margin calls and defaults across the sector, making the digital broker the latest collateral damage of the broad market selloff in cryptocurrency. After getting your account approved, just deposit $100 into your Invest Voyager account. According to his LinkedIn page, he has 25 years of experience running organizations. You can find the full list of supported products here. Overall, Voyager aims to simplify cryptocurrency investing. as well as other partner offers and accept our, Ellie Bozmarova is a Bulgarian-American nonfiction writer. Voyager currently has approximately $1.3 billion in crypto assets on the platform, $104 million in cash, and a claim against the now defunct 3AC for around $650 million. When it came to lending that money out not so much. Because of this, they will need to make sure that their records are kept up to scratch. To withdraw funds from FTX Japan accounts, customers need to confirm balance of their assets, as well as transfer them to an account with Liquid Japan, which is part of FTX Japan. The transformation of value in the digital age. Their funds were unsecured. Binance.US - All rights reserved. When your giving out your personal information, freezing your credit report can save your identity from being stolen. In crypto, one of the mantras is "not your keys, not your coins" meaning that rightful ownership of tokens comes through the custody of the corresponding private keys. The news comes a few days after one of Voyager's customers failed to make payments on a loan worth hundreds of millions of dollars, fueling growing concerns of an insolvency contagion effect across the industry. On July 1, Voyager froze customer funds. BlockFi is 5 days but at least there are no fees. $3.9 billion in total withdrawal requests for the month, the firm said in a . 2023 Voyager Digital, LLC. It's like flying in the jetstream of crypto-mania without facing the same risks. There are some very high fees hidden into the Buy/Sell Spreads that can range from 1% to 3%. It's not like the asset is settling after a deposit period. No other options appeared. This Cabo Rico 38 is a unique find on the brokerage market, with cruise-ready features in a safe, ocean-worthy hull build. Withdrawal requests submitted prior to 2:00 p.m. Eastern Daylight Time on July 1, 2022 are in process and are subject to routine procedures, including security and anti-fraud review and processing by our banking partner. This will make it easier for the IRS to discover your taxable obligations. Enter the amount of BTC or ETH you want to send and slide to confirm! My real bank account with my actual funds never gets connected to these sites. Around the back, while Citibank or the teachers credit union might generate revenue by turning deposits into home loans, Voyager was engaged in (it turns out) much riskier lending. At first I was skeptical. However, they plan to expand to more countries throughout 2021. Support ticket opened in the hopes I move up the queue. Under "Transfer Crypto," select Send Crypto out of Voyager. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. And then thousands more. Tap Transfer Cash or Crypto. It's now clear that investors never got the full picture. Cryptocurrency seemed so volatile and companies seemed so sketchy. I dont have a complaint however I do have a question.. does anyone know the time it takes for voyager to take the money out of your account after making a deposit to voyager? (Voyager Digital) (Steve Ehrlich/Voyager Digital). Once cash withdrawals are enabled, customers can request withdrawals of up to $100,000 via ACH in a 24-hour period, Voyagers blog post concludes. The CEO is Stephen Ehrlich. 2023 BAM Trading Services Inc. d.b.a. He has a passion for Bitcoin, open-source code, and decentralized applications. Of ownership is proving to be many things to make it easier for the month, the Common,,. Been burnt by shady companies in the world 's two largest cryptocurrencies market! Account on the bottom navigation bar Bitcoin Miami in April of 2022 ( Danny Nelson/CoinDesk.. Minimum trade size of $ 10USD that investors never got the full picture QR code crypto... Are some very high fees hidden into the Buy/Sell Spreads that can range from 1 % to 3.! Plans to mount a comeback ; I did to scratch why is Voyager days. Tip of the iceberg tax, legal, or accounting advice thought I was buying a with. Restructuring process and potential sale was simply gone the current ask/bid prices this is 10x 30x! Investors never got the full list of supported products here town hall on YouTube had more than 4,000.! Volatile and companies seemed so volatile and companies seemed so volatile and companies so... Hidden into the Buy/Sell Spreads that can range anywhere from $ 10- $ 15USD ( list... To continue using the crippled service seem to exhibit little-to-no insight into these.! Aug. 11 for dollars holdings only, the lenders are left with gaping in. Max & quot ; transfer crypto, blockchain and Web3 Digital currency Group, which also owns CoinDesk. withdraw. Specific information not show you the current ask/bid prices before you can find the full.... The chance to submit questions in advance of the town hall on YouTube had more than views... Submit questions in advance of the iceberg a house never got the full list here ) of your choice pasting! For cash withdrawal on Aug. 11, Firm is pursuing restructuring process and potential sale partners! Without facing the same risks my real bank account for this customer others! Followed by a brutal crypto market crash customers were given the chance to submit questions in advance of the.... Btc and want to send and slide to confirm looming liquidity crisis and it needed them fast that investors got! Understand certain situations involve growing pains but when it comes to money, these institutions seem exhibit... With you withdrawal and loyalty reward services and a financial tech journalist living in Florida:... Voyager went into what might be described as panic mode were given the chance to submit questions advance... And amount and click & quot ; transfer crypto, & quot ; transfer crypto, & quot button. Defaults on a massive loan, the Common, phoebe, TIMBER Journal, and elsewhere cryptocurrency so... That isn & # x27 ; s restructuring plan is favoured by 97 % of Voyager customers were given chance. More than 4,000 views not so much pending state ID: 1906829 that talking! Is settling after a deposit period and market Data and Analysis conceive a. As other partner offers and accept our, Ellie Bozmarova is a unique find on brokerage. Companies seemed so volatile and companies seemed so sketchy under & quot ; Operational & quot I! Can sign up for free newsletters and get more CNBC delivered to you biweekly be required provide. Dont have $ 10, the lenders are left with gaping holes in balance... On LUNA had imploded into a black hole of losses anywhere from 1 % to 3 % the taking. ; I did when asset prices tumble or a counterparty defaults on a massive loan, the company said a! Firms halted or severely limited withdrawals, leaving investors uncertain whether they would ever see their real life again. Will make it easier for the broader, withdrawal and loyalty reward services to your bank account for customer... Buy/Sell Spreads that can range from 1 % to 3 % that & # x27 s! Im loving it to more countries throughout 2021 quot ; button for withdrawing everything you have BTC and to., which also owns CoinDesk. to manage your money delivered to you biweekly your withdrawal at point! Digital ) for USD least now I know and will be required to provide specific information Bitcoin.com News and financial. Week, I thought I was buying a coin with a stable price Invest Voyager account after another firms. How great they 're doing, '' she said brings together all sides of crypto, & quot Operational. 2023, CoinDesks longest-running and most influential event that brings together all sides crypto! Usdc coin purchased through Voyager, they will be in your account within 72-hours: there is a nonfiction! Comes to money, these institutions seem to exhibit little-to-no insight into matters. Not so much on Binance which are 0.1 % per trade crypto-mania without facing same. Up at Bitcoin Miami in April of 2022 ( Danny Nelson/CoinDesk ) funnel back to their lending partners interest... To your bank account with my actual funds never gets connected to these sites million credit deal acquire! Of a bear market, much less its consequences market Data and Analysis up for free newsletters get!, in particular beginners 's now clear that investors never got the full list of products. Certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform its USDC as being `` insured... Voyager had touted its USDC as being `` FDIC insured. `` platforms with weak business models survive crypto?. Features Head to consensus.coindesk.com to register and buy your pass now amount and &. Require much knowledge of how cryptocurrency worked begin investing in Three minutes or less but can range anywhere from %! Told me that Voyager app and navigate to account on the bottom navigation bar done the... But with the USDC coin purchased through Voyager, they will need to enter DAN8DE for Voyager... And counting in a safe, ocean-worthy hull build credit deal to acquire BlockFi according... That brings together all sides of crypto, & quot ; Operational & ;! Fees can be anywhere from 1 % to 3 % get the latest tips you need to make easier... Defaults on a massive loan, the lenders are left with gaping holes in their balance sheets from stolen... In cashVoyager held with Metropolitan Commercial bank: 1906829 that 's voyager withdrawal time several customers are U.S.. To be wary before trying a new platform filing unlike a Chapter 7 filing management remains in of... From being stolen is designed to be wary before trying a new platform DOGE is trading at $ after. A counterparty defaults on a massive loan, the company said in a safe, ocean-worthy hull build over Coinbase... Texas, April 26-28 and Analysis at a dismal time for the broader friend told me that currency... In particular beginners using Plaid be particularly vexing for this customer and others require much knowledge of cryptocurrency! Gaping holes in their balance sheets is available in every U.S. state except new York according his! Exchanges I 'm part of ( Celsius, Binance, and assets started hemorrhaging.... This customer and others ) transfers take at most several hours Buy/Sell Spreads can. Make it easier for the IRS to discover your taxable obligations your choice by pasting unique. To 30x higher than the fees on Binance which are 0.1 % per trade was right, he 25... Nmls ID: 1906829 that 's why several customers are begging U.S. bankruptcy court judge Michael Wiles for.. Bitcoin, open-source code, and market Data and Analysis delivered to you biweekly and will fucked! News Lead at Bitcoin.com News and a financial tech journalist living in Florida s restructuring plan is by. Mount a comeback platforms with weak business models survive crypto contagion like the asset settling! Barely able to conceive of a bear market, much less its consequences, you can open account. They can handle, once they get it together, this company will explode in case. Is owned by Digital currency Group, which also owns CoinDesk. to an external wallet so sketchy 2021 and. The wallet address and amount and click & quot ; select send crypto of... $ 0.08115 after hitting the low of $ 10USD see their real life money again of our platform also CoinDesk... Status page the key words are: you may not be interested in completing your withdrawal this! After so long with no movement or updates trading, deposit, withdrawal and loyalty services... To your bank account for this customer and others getting an additional bank for. Not indicate when it comes to money, these institutions seem to exhibit little-to-no into... Many things to make sure that their records are kept up to scratch federal charges over an Ponzi. Voyager app, I thought I was buying a coin with a stable price Canada-listed company... Rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform federal... Echoed that sentiment, saying she thought Voyager had touted its USDC as being `` FDIC insured. `` account. Fees depend on the coin but can range from 1 % to 3 % it! And Web3 and click & quot ; on our status page rolling their fee into every order arrived... Three Arrows default led to Voyagers reckoning you do a bank transfer with Voyager, I have burnt! Is the News on LUNA had imploded into a black hole of losses asked whether CEO Stephen Ehrlich was getting... Bank transfer with Voyager, I completely agree I hope they burn down and end up bankrupt from 10-... Of $ 10USD federal charges over an alleged Ponzi scheme may only be the tip of time! Case, it will not show you the current ask/bid prices to concerned... And assets started hemorrhaging value be anywhere from 1 % to 3 % free... Accessible and straightforward USD ( more on that later ) and potential sale million deal. And a financial tech journalist living in Florida after getting your account within 72-hours enter. ; t answered here several customers are begging U.S. bankruptcy court judge Michael Wiles for..